For the record and some remarks, don’t worry I’m speaking to myself

 

(See also the previous and -yet to come- next blog)

After I wrote my long open letter to my longtime teacher Isaac Shapiro a lot happened for me.

Most if not all communication about this happened outside the place where I naively expected it to happen, the so called sangha on the facebook page Friends of …..

Actually after a short while and without any notice my membership there was ended and with that automatically everything I wrote in there, including all the reactions on it, was deleted.

For a while I went into the trance called doubt.
I wondered even if I might have hallucinated it all.

As I wrote last night: “I am so touchy when it comes to self confidence, that when I say as in my eyes for a fact that someone is wearing sunglasses and that person says that I am mistaken, I go int he trance called doubt.

I even thought about deleting the open letter blog.
But by now it is again clear to me that the sunglasses are sunglasses.
So the blog will remain.
And for the record I reproduce here part of what has been deleted from facebook. I saw it coming and made back ups, alas not complete.
What I have I showed to the before mentioned friend and he came back with the clear and just conclusion: “Thanks for sharing! Unfortunately Isaac did not respond to the actual issue you and S. raised, and instead expelled both of you.

Three weeks ago I wrote this about my overall feeling about the whole story to the members of the Tao men’s group:
QUOTE
Mannen,

De reacties op mijn brief aan en over mijn vorige leraar Isaac Shapiro riep vooral afkeurende reacties op.
Geen enkele reactie op inhoud van die kant.
Ik schreef nog een addendum en vlak daarna werd ik geblokkeerd in die facebook sangha groep (Friends of Isaac and Meike).
Het Addendum: hansvandergugten.nl/?p=5199

Ik sudder en sidder en bibber na van deze actie.
Ik ben in een soort geshockte toestand, zo voelt het althans, het raakt diep van binnen de angst van en voor waanzin.
Soms denk ik dat ik alles maar heb gefantaseerd of verzonnen.

Waarvan acte.

Aho,
hans
UNQUOTE

Here they are, all my back ups from fb friends ….., double or not, without checking for that, in one mail for you: …..

Note: just found out that because of all the repetitions, back up upon backup, it doesn’t fit here. I leave it like this.
I don’t feel like spending time on redacting that stuff.
Aho.

One day later, I try now if my last back up will fit in here:

On woensdag 07-08-19 0:29, Hans van der Gugten wrote:
Hans van der Gugten heeft een link gedeeld.

This contains the word “sangha” thirty times, you’re involved.

HANSVANDERGUGTEN.NL
The following is a painstaking report of my personal process. Dearest Isaac, As you know, I have a habit of writing in great detail when I think that something needs to be clarified. Why so? The t…
Opmerkingen
  • Paul R Hughes
    Paul R Hughes 60% read…..backpain restricts my sitting time….
    BUT my estimation of you has taken a quantum leap upward from my former obsession with mate-guarding by which you were a personal threat.
    Bravo, Bro!
    My best Regards, Wishes & Blessings,

 

  • André Meeusen
    André Meeusen I have read the 100% and this feels as some kind of accomplishment. 😉Thank you Hans for speaking from your heart. Your letter touched me deeply. It is in my attention in such a way that I want to respond. Which brings me to the following:
    – Isaac has been a teacher to me in three retreats and some satsangs in Amsterdam. I feel a lot of gratitude for the many things I learned from him, and I have been looking forward for some time now to express this to him. I guess that my emotional response is partly coming from here.
    – It is beautiful to connect in a ‘clean’ and vulnerable way. Our sexual preoccupations and conditionings are a challenge to that. This is probably another part of my emotional response. I take this as another signal to slow down even more while connecting in sexual ways in the future.
    – I like your quotes from the Tao booklet. When a teacher communicates that he is sexually available and interested to explore different sexual relationships (and from my perspective this is what I have seen Isaac doing) this brings a lot of commotion to the sangha (and I have been a witness to that too). It seems very important to me to stay open to everyones response to this. What your letter underlines to me is that bringing the light of consciousness into this world as a human being means to be as humble and transparent as possible. To be love and express love in this world means to surrender any self interest or agenda.
    – This brings me to your remark that ‘Nirvana is an asymptote’. Being human means being limited, and even when all identifications have left us, we are limited every moment we play this human role. As I understood it, Isaacs special way of giving satsang has come from the insight that he saw himself ‘being sharp at the satsang but making a mess of his life’, and is driven by the intention to find balance between the peace of consciousness and the always changing calamity of living in this world. To find the open and vulnerable heart to do this, is the core of his teaching. I would love to see a response from Isaac coming from here. I think I can learn from that. I wish I could invite him in the most gentle way I have seen him doing so often.
    – What I learned from the many satsangs is that the start of this exploration is always right here. How beautiful. We are connecting at this moment, we exchange perspectives, and are being moved by that. We are on the same boat. All is well.
    With love to you all!

 

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Thanks for reading it all. Good for you, good for me. Several people told me that it was too long. One of them I wrote this: “Thanks for sharing. It has what we call in Dutch ‘voor elk wat wils’. A short version, a one line summary of it, a long short version and a incredibly long version for the happy few. Everybody who spends more then 10 seconds will get the point I guess.” You belong to the happy few. I also would like a response from Isaac. But from the moment I mentioned this subject for the first time, he goes ad hominem. In Germany he said this about me last week, according to a eye witness with good ears: “Isaac said to that that you want to polarize and feed on it and you want to feel special , all to get attention . That’s your way of asking for attention he said and it is painful to watch and in the past the sangha repeatedly held you and Isaac said it was at a high cost for the sangha . He said that you have this pattern since he met you and that it isn’t changing , the momentum of it is so strong that it keeps going.” I rest my case. And I do know that even if deep down this my action comes from wanting attention, it does not away my observations and the well considered and enormous amount of information that I brought together. I also have a analysis of another German friend that I would like to quote here, but first I will ask his permission to do so.

 

 

Bob Newhart-Stop It
YOUTUBE.COM
Bob Newhart-Stop It

Bob Newhart-Stop It

14 antwoorden verbergen

 

  • Why Michelangelo Didn't Paint the Last Supper
    YOUTUBE.COM
    Why Michelangelo Didn’t Paint the Last Supper

    Why Michelangelo Didn’t Paint the Last Supper

  • Marco Meiring

    Marco Meiring Not funny, I don’t feel you take me or my comment serious and I wonder if you take your own subject serious.

    I didn’t notice any expression of you where you share what the core of your subject: people pretending something and doing something else (as far as I can read, correct me if I’m wrong) is doing with YOU.

    So therefor I invite you to share your pain\tears with us and if you only use this forum to point a finger to the ‘guilty’ one(s) then please bugger off, it makes me feel annoyed not being taken serious while I take your shit serious.
    Look at what Meike and Lisa are writing, I guess you’re welcome…

  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring Then you have to read once more what I wrote.
    I like to keep our conversation here and not in the other line.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Marco Meiring What I wrote is not about my pain. It is about what it is about, just read it again. (And again). And in it is my process. My proces about what it is about.
    What would make you notice the pain in it? Emoticons with tears? I speak about pain, and painfull and about disappointment. And at the end of that long and instructive story my process is full circle. Look and the concluding sentences, in the penultimate paragraph: When I showed Chiv your answer, (your answer that I labeled as not being accurate) to my question about an update, he wrote me this: Strange, he talks about rumors, he is making me a liar.
    I guess from compassion he wrote: “Being let down and betrayed by someone you are so close and in love with is the worst that can happen. But sometimes necessary to get rooted in ones own truth.”
    I must admit that that is a accurate description of my deep down feeling.
    Plain disappointment, stemming from my own projections on you.
    So it is, so be it. EINDE CITAAT For me personally the profit is gained already. There is more pain around. If that will solve itself or melt away is not in my hand. I did my best. I said that I was going to ask another friend if I could quote from his comment on my by him much appreciated blog. He said yes. It is not very short, yet here it is, for you and whoelse might want to read it. QUOTE In a recent email to you, Isaac said that he is not interested in judgement and positions. Based on what the eyewitness described as Isaac’s response to your having posted “A diabolical dilemma”, it is evident that Isaac too has judgements about other people, just like me. He may even be right in saying that you want to feel special. I too know this feeling of wanting to feel special. I thought that that was a universal human trait. But maybe I am wrong and I am special in wanting to be special.
    And don’t we all like to get attention, at least a certain kind of non-judgemental attention, which Isaac failed to give you in his response as described by the eyewitness in front of the entire sangha. On a positive note, it is good to see that Isaac is human.

    And yes, it is true that the sangha repeatedly held you in the past. This capacity of the sangha to hold everyone is something I have always appreciated. It is special, but it is not special specifically to you. And as you so honestly describe in “A diabolical dilemma”, there are also instances where the sangha is not able to hold someone. These instances occur, for example, in the rare event that a member of the sangha perceives things differently than the guru and the flock and that member dares to speak his or her truth and remain true to it.

    And yes, it may well be true that the patterns that Isaac observes in you have been playing ever since he has met you. That is the nature of patterns. They are pretty persistent motherfuckers.

    To bring this letter to a close, I do not believe that Isaac’s judgements about you are correct, even if it they are mingled with some truths that, as far as I can see, apply to all human beings.

    I do not believe that what you say in “A diabolical dilemma” is motivated by a wish to polarize and feed on it. I believe you when you say that you have no Plan B and that you are an honest character, which is not always appreciated, as is also clear in the case at hand.

    Neither do I believe that the sangha is paying a high price for your love of Truth. What a weird claim to make by someone who holds meetings in Truth.

    I do believe that you have a number of valuable things to say over which you have reflected deeply for many years. But from what I observe in the dynamics between gurus and sanghas, neither guru nor most members of sanghas are interested in “your human heart, your truth, your vulnerability, your brokenness and your courage, your fire, your sorrow, your fear, your rawness and your awkward authenticity” – as Jeff Foster calls it in the Facebook link you kindly provided in “A diabolical dilemma” – if it happens to rock their boats.

    The obstacles to give up our dreams are great. It is even more difficult for a guru to give up his dream. The sweet nectar of that type of attention and everything that comes with it can be very seductive. Ask Andrew Cohen. He didn’t get off his high horse voluntarily, the horse threw him off. Because people like you started speaking their truths and despite being laughed at, belittled, criticised, made wrong, accused, condemned and ostracized, remained true to their seeing and continued to speak their truths.

    No Hans, I do not agree with Isaac that the sangha is paying a price because you are speaking the truth of your seeing. I do, however, agree with Isaac that the sangha is paying a high price. This price is addressed by you in parts in “A diabolical dilemma”. But few will listen.

    Hug from another friend. END OF QUOTE

    That’s it for today.

  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring Resume: “Being let down and betrayed by someone you are so close and in love with is the worst that can happen…”
    “I must admit that that is a accurate description of my deep down feeling.
    Plain disappointment,”
    For me is it that where it’s all about and I resonate with it as well and I’m probably not the only one.
    When I was very young I expected to be seen, felt and heard and understood by my parents which didn’t work out quite well and created a deep hurt/wound described as disappointment a very big disappointment.
    But that was not the only thing, the sadness and the grief which appeared because of that betrayel where way too much for me at that time and I also was not able to communicate my issue which made me also feel powerless.
    Well, there was a solution: being angry, at that time a very helpful respons because I could isolate and protect myself and my wound so I didn’t had to feel the grief what I feel now very clearly as well as the disappointment and it really wants to be felt but my mind was uptill now still in that moment long time ago.
    And that f***ing disappointment reappeared over the years over and over again and I couldn’t get rid of it, but thanks to this conversation there is now more clearity which feelings actually where repressed and ignored and am I able to feel this raw pain (bit by bit) a little more.
    That’s what it stirres in my system.

    So Hans, what’s your ‘story’ and where do you walk around with and how did it affect your being?

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Thanks for sharing. And for the question. As I wrote, also in my open letter to Isaac, things for me often are stuck on a high level of abstraction. And are solved on a high level of abstraction. Writing a text like that is for me a way to get more clarity. My statement and discovery that I do not have a Plan B is an example of that. I just seem to be hardwired or double bind educated to having to speak my truth. Last night, after reading your text, several examples of this came floating to the surface of what we call the mind. Once, long ago when doing my military service, there was this situation that we as soldiers had to stay in the neighbourhood of the barracks during the weekend and had to show up several times a day on appeal. In between those appeals we could receive visitors and be outside of the gate. At one of those appeals I was called over to the first lieutenant who told me that for some reason I was to be punished again and he forbade me to leave the gate. But my girlfriend is awaiting me outside, I said, I will go say goodbye and come back right away. He forbade me that and I just did not accept that. I was as we call that nowadays, speaking Truth to Power. There was just no good reason for him to not allow me to walk out the gate and back in again. It was abuse of power. And then I just do not have a plan B. I told him that nothing could stop me from walking out and that I was going to do that. The man became furious, became red in the face, started trembling, started shouting at me, threatened to have me arrested by the Military Police and for a millisecond I saw him consider to draw his pistol. I walked out, said bye to my girlfriend and walk back in. Scary stuff to do, but no choice. Story of my life. In a way I just do not believe that Evil exists, I always take it for granted that deep down, maybe even deeper down, people know that what they do is not right in and of itself , but a defense mechanism. My stories, because I am a trembling mix of knowing things for sure and endlessly willing to check again and again, are full of question marks. And when in reaction to all of my content there just come a sneer about me being just an attention seeker, I go for days through very painful states, even considering it possible that all of what I wrote is nonsense and just a hallucination. And then after such a painful circle I come back to the reality of having written this, and knowing that it is referring to something that is going on. (I stop for now, i could go on forever). Hope this makes sense to you. Let me know if you want .
  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring No Hans, it does not make any sense to me, tell me what can I actually sense in this colourless ennumeration of memories.
    Did you share anything sensible?
    It actually hurts communicating with someone who does not make any kind of contact or is aligned to the one he’s speaking to.
    So things for you often are stuck and solved on a high level of abstraction, what means that for you, what is that doing with you?
    This is a direct question, I don’t want another story or example, I ask what it is doing with you, how it effects you.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Did I share anything sensible? Yes, a lot. But apparently not seen through your eyes. What can I do? It is maybe too long for you, or too abstract, or whatever. Some people blamed me for the lenght of my text. I wrote them this: “Thanks for sharing. It has what we call in Dutch ‘voor elk wat wils’. A short version, a one line summary of it, a long short version and a incredibly long version for the happy few. Everybody who spends more then 10 seconds will get the point I guess.” Maybe you can limit yourself to the one line version, or the short version and let me know your comments and or questions from there.
  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring It actually hurts communicating with someone who does not make any kind of contact or is aligned to the one he’s speaking to.
    So things for you often are stuck and solved on a high level of abstraction, what means that for you, what is that doing with you?
    This is a direct question, I don’t want another story or example, I ask what it is doing with you, how it effects you.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Okay, you say “It actually hurts communicating with someone who does not make any kind of contact or is aligned to the one he’s speaking to.” What you seem to overlook is the possibility that I am making as much contact as I can and am trying to align to you as good as I can. And the effect of it is at your side that it actually hurts.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Then you point out that you asked a direct question: “So things for you often are stuck and solved on a high level of abstraction, what means that for you, what is that doing with you?” And you insist on a answer. I will try to answerMeer bekijken
  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring Ok, sorry missed out on you’re last post while writing, I take that post back.
    I don’t insist on an answer, I don’t like to be ignored, why should I talk to you if you act as if I’m not important, I rather leave you alone.
    So finally an answer, painful and lonely due to misunderstanding.
    I know that one pretty well, you’re not alone in that.
    Let’s be a moment with those feelings.
    That’s pretty tough shit, but it can change.
    For me it changed when I started showing and sharing my feelings, so showing myself instead of hiding behind stories and strange remarks people didn’t understand.
    Somehow showing myself and what’s going on is a language everybody speaks, while the mind(world) is an individual one and therefore very lonely and not even true.
    And even if you or me are true in our stories, just a few will be interested, ’cause it’s not making contact, it doesn’t touch while feelings have that power.
    I know you’re gonna ponder that over and over in your mind, but I can tell you, I did the same and it’s not gonna be found there.
    Please reach out that’s part of the change and you can’t do this on your own.

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Again you did not get what I was communicating to and with you. You blame that on me. By putting me down. I am disappointed. What a pity. Sleep well.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Tomorrow I will send you a list of …. You’ll see. Time for my night time rituals.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Schrijf een antwoord…
  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro This endless self importance of me and my process from a mental perspective.

 

 

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Yes, that is why I sign with “As always, from the heart to and through the mind and back.” And the content is about your ‘me and my process’, if I may say so.
  • Qui Quiriqui
    Qui Quiriqui Isaac, are you talking about you? Who else is there?
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Schrijf een antwoord…
  • Pujarin Silvia Merkle-schmidt
    Pujarin Silvia Merkle-schmidt I love Byron Katie „there is your business, his or her business and god‘s business – as long as you can distinguish them everything is fine“ ( not literally but in essence)
  • Yvonne Falk
    Yvonne Falk The teacher’s job is to point at the moon. Sooner or later, most teachers will do something you don’t like. This dislike can be an obstacle, obscuring the moon.
  • Jan Kieft
    Jan Kieft Before enlightenment we chop the wood and we get ourselves a glass of water. After enlightenment we chop the wood and get ourselves a glass of water. What has enlightenment got to do with our human needs?
  • Jan Kieft
    Jan Kieft With all our current (social) media at our disposal it is so easy to discuss someone else’s behaviour. Response guaranteed. But is it wise? There’s a saying “whoever bounces can expect the ball”. This is derived from the Hermetic principles, which describe the orderly functioning of life. And it’s meant to redirect your attention to yourself.
  • Gayatri Devi
    Gayatri Devi With love I recommend some good marijuana, Hans <3

 

 

 

  • Jan Kieft
    Jan Kieft That resonates with me! I recognize myself in every soul.

 

  • Melinda Price It’s long ! And we are all human all in this together
  • Lisa Van Ginneken
    Lisa Van Ginneken It took me quite some time in this life to learn that there’s not a lot of words needed to bring other people’s attention to the things I find hard to deal with. Ever since I discovered the power of ‘hold me, please’, my ability to connect with others and with myself has increased hugely. Holding you right now, Hans❤️
  • Jan Kieft
    Jan Kieft Shall we stop this discussion now? Every time something is posted (including this post) a ripple is created, which then expands because it wants to be seen and felt. For what purpose? To keep the mind busy?
  • Trui Simmelink
    Trui Simmelink Dear people
    Long time ago I created this facebookgroup Friends of Isaac and Meike
    I used a emailadres at my Workplace
    I can not use that adres anymore therefor It is imposseble for me to host this group longer.
    So I Will end this account in the fall.
    So let’s create an other account and be sure that everybody who want can be invited to THE new group
    Who want to host that group? send me
    A Message
    I feel a interesed to be sure that THE transition Will be smooth and long enough for everybody
    To join
    Thank you, in deep respect and love,
    Trui 🙏🏻
    My New Facebook adres Trui Simmelink

 

  • Esther Zengerink
    Esther Zengerink hi Trui Simmelink, bedoel je dat je deze facebook groep stopt? Is het niet mogelijk iemand anders het hosten te laten overnemen? hoor het graag

 

  • Trui Simmelink
    Trui Simmelink Esther Zengerink 
    Het is een ingewikkeld technisch verhaal Ik ben in gesprek met Isaac Dank voor je mail Ik zal proberen in mijn volgende post duidelijk zijn over hoe en wat 🙏🏻💞
  • Qui Quiriqui
    Qui Quiriqui Dear Hans, I feel sorry this is keeping you so busy as it seems. First, Isaac is not your dad, as you know by mind. But I feel you project some of your unmet painful feelings onto him, and he’s not able to hold them and cope with them, probably repeatiMeer bekijken
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Dear Qui Quiriqui, it is strange, but it feels in a way as a relief that you state all this so bluntly, without any question marks. Yet, all those question marks in my text is very much me, my style. In a way you are, like me, rather occupied with this, but Meer bekijken
  • Open letter to my teacher Genpo Merzel
    BASICGOODNESS.COM
    Open letter to my teacher Genpo Merzel

    Open letter to my teacher Genpo Merzel

  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken What Isaac is doing with women and even worse how is dealing with it that feels heartbreaking to me and made me leave the field i considered for 20 years to be my home and family.

    I once witnessed Isaac dealing with a friend of mine, he was involved with, by bypassing her anger and leading her right into feelings of helplessness. For me it seemed like that place of her weakness was way more convenient for Isaac than facing her appropriate anger!!
    For me it felt like witnessing an act of manipulation and that hurt a lot and pissed me off!

    Or how he is spiritualizing the issue away by insisting not to be a teacher, bending the truth as he needs it … and each time me or someone else confronted him with the dirty truth of his acting, he escaped into the absolute by asking ridiculous questions…
    May be it’s time to wake up and face an inconvenient truth…

    As a trauma therapist and as a human i can see the abuse of women who came for support and couldn’t set clear boundaries cause of all the love that’s there, the deep entanglement and the wish of protecting the bond and not loosing his love!!

    A while ago i red in a mail of a friend that Isaac wrote “What shall I do? Shall I stop giving meetings?”
    My answer is yes!! Please stop it! If you’re not aware of what you’re doing you might not be skilled enough for what you do and if you are aware of what you are doing then you are sexually and emotionally abusing women with eyes wide open!!
    May be it would be better to stop it…

    It’s a seduction trap many gurus and teacher fall into, it’s so easy going down that road! And the argument of Isaac, he gave me a couple of years ago in public in the church in Amsterdam that this is the only place where he meets women … that’s a desaster and it shows how pityful it is!!

 

17 antwoorden verbergen
  • Flore Mioux
    Flore Mioux Dear one.. As I can feel, deep shit is running into the Sangha.. It makes me sad.. Love for you from France

 

  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro Hi Samira, lets see if I understand correctly. Its OK for you to do trauma work even though it appears there is unresolved trauma issues in you. You know whats best for everyone and I should listen to you instead of the 1000’s of folks who say that are getting value from the meetings and love me to continue. I know you have been present when we explored as a community whether I function as a teacher or an invitation and now I am twisting the truth according to your perception.
  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro Lets be clear, in the many years of spending time together, I cant remember any time when a huge upset was not happening in you. I watched this pattern repeating itself over and over and saw it happening with so many beloveds. I saw that you couldnt help it, Retreat after retreat. So now this upset is projecting onto me and you seem to be convinced of your perspective. To me there doesnt seem any willingness to explore only to vomit this out on facebook in what I would say is unskilled and traumatised in a format that is not condusive to exploration. I would not recommend anyone to come to you for trauma work.
  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro I see the same with Hans van der Gugten. Year after year expressing in a way that was to my perception highly traumatised and painful to himself and all around him to the extent I finally asked him to stop coming. May you both find peace and while our species is functioning in a way that is destroying its chances of survival, find avenues that express and invite with gentleness and kindness.
  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken Isaac, not only to my perception you are twisting the truth!
    It’s absolutely not about unresolved stuff… I have it, you have it, everybody has it, that’s not the problem!
    It’s about having sex with women who come for support and you being in absolute denial of it, considering yourself to be wild and free and you can do whatever you want , pretending not to be a teacher, which is redicoulous to me especially if you switch into the guru level if that feels more convenient to you…
    And lets be clear, I am not having sex with my clients!!
    So i don’t see the point of comparing apples with bananas.

    No problem Isaac you go on giving Satsang as long as you like and that’s not the point at all! I don’t say that I know what’s good for everybody but I know what I don’t like and that is overstepping sexual boundaries and pretending everything is fine about that. You are not the first Guru doing that and you will not be the last…

    I have unresolved stuff, yess, I’m projecting onto you, yess may be… no problem but let’s be clear, i am not the one who is leaving a trace behind of broken hearts and retraumatized women.

    Whenever I wanted to look into it with you or answered your mail as equals, you left the contact as equals, changed levels and dissapeared into the absolute and asked me strange stuff…

    Well Isaac you don’t see any willingness to explore in me and I see it none of it in you!
    Now you can vomit your unresolved stuff onto me, no problem Isaac, actually I don’t care!
    I’m happy to be out of that game and I’m wishing you well.

  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken Flore Mioux love to you 💞, it makes me sad too 😢💖
  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro The vomit continues.
  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken Isaac, i don’t perceive myself vomiting at you!
    I share my perception and my heart and that says NO at this point in my life. No this is not the place for me to be anymore!
    I tried to speak with you several times privately and in public… each time you rejected everything I said, told me that I’m just projecting, i would be not willing to look deeper and you even made jokes on my expense in front of the church audience in Amsterdam and i don’t like to be treated like that.

    I know you cannot help it you live how you live and you see what and how you see it.
    And at the moment you obviously needed to attack me.

    Thank God i’m not dependent on your recommendation for my traumawork.
    Life provides me with clients who seem to get good value out of my Sessions. They are coming into their power and agency, getting able to set boundaries, deepen their connection with life and their loved ones…

    I receive your saying that you would not recommend my traumawork to anybody as an attack. You never had any session with me, you don’t know my work.

    You are free to project, project onto me whatever you need to project. But what you wrote about my traumawork and how you perceived me in all those years, feels for me as an attack and trying to be hurtfull and that doesn’t feel right and clean to me.

  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro Samira, I have asked you to stop. Maybe the only way is for you to feel what it feels like when someone uses facebook like this. Please stop. You say you wanted to explore and to me that felt like the only exploration possible was to go into agreement with you. You didnt seem able to hear my heart at all. So I left it and you continue. You talk about a string of broken hearts. What emotive nonsense. STOP. What I say feels as an attack and what you say doesnt???????
  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken You don’t have to agree with me at all !! I said what I had to say. I hear you’re angry, i hear you feel not seen… good! Same here.
    Sometimes our deeds have echoes and consequences we don’t like…
    Don’t worry, i stop here, i see all arguments are lost on you…
    Wishing you well.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Isaac Shapiro Dearest Isaac, since I wrote you my open letter, you only have spoken ABOUT me to others in a specifically derogatory way. Speaking truth to power provokes this kind of reactions, I have experienced this from childhood. You do the same to Samira, you do not react with a single word to the content of what she is referring to, and you disqualify her as a trauma therapist. Brrr. I saw the same reactions coming from James Swartz, a few years ago. And in one of my letters to him I described the most impactful behaviour like this, way back when I was 16. Maybe you want to read it, maybe not. Up to you. QUOTE What am I referring to?
    The clearest situation from my personal past that came up last month was one where i was honest and severely punished for it.
    It is the story of a schoolteacher that wanted me to be removed from this pre-highschool just a month before the end exam. Why?
    He also was convinced that I was not qualified because I could not appreciate his act. What happened?
    This man, the second master of the school I was attending, was a very self assured and arrogant person, who once had scolded us,
    my class, for our recreant behavior toward this one particular teacher
    who could not handle us, the pitied nervous wreck of a teacher that every school seems to have. He dared us to try this on him. (Cowards!, he said).
    Well, not so much later , this narcissistic personality was again making a fool out of one of the weaker classmates, making sure that a lot of the others were laughing out loud.
    And there is always one who feels the underlying pain and can’t stand it.
    Remembering his challenge, this seemed a good moment and I said: I don’t think this is funny.
    Enfin, the man directed his venomous arrows on me and again I said that I didn’t think that is was funny.
    Upon which he spoke the still remembered words:
    YOU SHUT UP. I AM SPEAKING ABOUT YOU AND NOT TO YOU. AND WHEN I SPEAK ABOUT YOU, YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
    Whereupon I said: that is okay, but then I leave, took my schoolbag and walked out, straight to the headmasters’ office.
    This apparently shocked teacher managed to arrive there before me and lied about what had happened,
    refused me in his lessons from then on and insisted on my removal from the school.
    The headmaster had only enough strength to shield me off from this man, allowing me to work in his office during the lessons French.
    I succeeded for the end exam. I was 16 years old then.
    See any parallels? I do. END OF QUOTEhttps://www.hansvandergugten.nl/?p=926
  • À la recherche du temps perdu, or Meji and Ramji 3.
    HANSVANDERGUGTEN.NL
    À la recherche du temps perdu, or Meji and Ramji 3.

    À la recherche du temps perdu, or Meji and Ramji 3.

  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken Hans van der Gugten thank you Hans for seeing me and standing with me 💖 by pointing out his devaluation of my work.

    Pointing out an inconvenient truth is never easy and ends mostly with being attacked, devaluated or ridiculed.
    Huggg 💞

  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro Hans, I am not interested in this play. Stop. Cheers, Isaac Shapiro
  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro Samira, As you devalued mine. I thought you said you were done. Dont you understand stop.
  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken Isaac Shapiro i replied to Hans and not to you!

    You’re not my commander, father, boss or my teacher!

    I know you would like me to shut up, but i’ll speak what i have to express. And i spoke to Hans and not to you! So please spare me from your bossy behaviour.

    I never devalued your teachings or the essence of your work but that is what you do with my work without knowing any bit of it!
    I critisize the sex with students thing and the denial of it, nothing more!

  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro As a therapist, do you recognise boundaries?
  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken Isaac Shapiro oh yess i love to respect and set clear and clean boundaries 😊!

    But what you do Isaac has nothing to do with clear and clean boundaries!
    You attack me and devalue my work and in the same sentence you want me to STOP, yes you demand me to stop!! It’s as if you would slap me in my face and in the same moment shout out “but you do have to stop now!”

    Sorry dear, that is not setting a boundary that is an act of violence and a power struggle!!

    And during demanding again and again that I shall Stop, you keep attacking me by vomiting a trace of criticism and devaluation on me and my work… or you interfere in a conversation between me and Hans and blame me not obay to your shut up command…

    Whats your target?
    To demonstrate that I’m a bad therapist?

    If you want it to stop then stop…

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Schrijf een antwoord…
  • Henk Zeilstra
    Henk Zeilstra Dear Samira. What I miss is the graduate for what Isaac did the last 20 years in your life. I know het supports you many times in your process and even becoming a SE therapist is coming through his meetings. I know you are disappointed and that is personal. I hope that you also are from distance or Awareness the gifts het brings for you during all those years. All my love sweetheart and all the best in your trip. I once heard the task of the guru is to get rid of the guru. I see Isaac not as a guru but this resonate for you well. So what a gift….To get on your own feet . A big hug!!

 

  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken Dear Henk, i understand!
    I do value what I got and learned in previous years but i also do see those last years, when retraumatisation happened… Meer bekijken

 

  • Hans van der Gugten

    Hans van der Gugten Hoi Henk, ik dacht laatst nog aan je. Ik stuur je de mail die ik net stuurde aan een subgroep Tao-training-mannen, in reactie op de vraag wat ik van het ‘nieuws’ over Vartman vind: Hoi Jan en andere mannen,

    Voor mij is dit bekend ‘nieuws’.

    Vartman zit in mijn mails al in 2009.
    (Toen werd zijn satsang geadverteerd in de nieuwbrief van de Amsterdamse Circle of Presence).
    En Jan, twee jaar geleden vroeg je mij dit: “Ha Hans.Klopt het dat ik jou heb gehoord over “the new tantra”.

    Ik schreef je dit terug: “Nee, dat heb je niet van mij gehoord.
    Maar ik heb even gegoogled en vind dan al snel de naam: Alex Vartman.
    En dan denk ik oh die.

    Vartman gaf 20 jaar geleden satsang en is helemaal op de sextoer gegaan.

    Ik heb tijdens de retraites met Isaac een stel meegemaakt, een huwelijk, dat uiteen viel omdat zij het met iedereen deed. [Toevoeging nu: aangespoord door Vartman, zeg maar].

    Hij (Vartman) spreekt Engels, maar als je googled op ‘new tantra de het’ dan vind je spul over het gebeuren (je vind als je zoekt op new tantra ook van alles over de cult, de sekte, hij is natuurlijk nogal omstreden met zijn orgie achtige praktijken) in onze moedertaal.
    Hier wat voorbeelden in het ollands:
    https://soapoli-online.nl/…/the-new-tantra-tantrische…
    http://www.soulwoman.org/2013/10/18/the-new-tantra-seks-5-0/
    https://www.volkskrant.nl/…/01/31/The-New-Tantra.dhtml“.

    Een vriend van mij stuurde me verleden week dit bericht:
    “Dag Hans

    Herinner je je Vartman nog, ergens rond 2000 ook actief in Advaita en vaak in A’dam?

    https://www.volkskrant.nl/…/als-tantra-naar-seksueel…/ 

    Als tantra naar seksueel misbruik neigt: vijf oud-cursisten over The New Tantra | De Volkskrant
    ‘Alex wil je zien.’ Met bonzend hart verlaat Lily, een knappe vrouw met felgroene ogen, de zaal waar studenten in opperste concentratie bezig zijn met een meditatieoefening. Het is ochtend, het cursusweekend is net begonnen. Door de gangen van het spirituele centrum in het Drentse Havelte dwaalt …
    www.volkskrant.nl
    Het zegt iets over het gevaar van charisma van spiritueel leiders, en hoe ze als ze ouder worden minder tegenspraak dulden (ja, ik zie de mogelijke parallel).
    En het belang van speaking your truth.”

    Dit was mijn antwoord:
    Voor mij is Vartman trouwens verbonden met een heel andere herinnering.
    Die ik na wat zoeken zowaar ook beschreven terugvind in een email uit februari 2012.

    Het is een NB van een mail aan D., de vriend die mij maar steeds niet wilde of kon begrijpen.
    Ik geef je de hele NB, een beetje voor de context.

    De “de satsang van een andere satsanggever” was er een van de beginnende Vartman die satsang gaf tegenover waar Gopal toen woonde in de Kerkstraat.
    CITAAT
    (Ik spreek hier dus tegen D.).
    NB
    Wat me in eerste instantie opvalt is dat je een reaktie geeft geheel los van, fysiek niet reagerend op, mijn mail waarop je pretendeert (vermoeid, ja zelfs de uitputting nabij lijkend) te reageren.
    ik zie slechts een opgeschroefde vooringenomenheid onder woorden gebracht met de energie van een gurutrick van het zuiverste water, mij een keer letterlijk geflikt door Gopalji.
    Hij liep op een gegeven moment weg uit de satsang van een andere satsanggever waar wij allebei zeg maar een kijkje namen, terwijl Gopal toen de rol had in mijn leven van de bewonderde en gewaardeerde Leraar.
    Toen ik hem vroeg waarom hij wegliep, reageerde hij met ‘je ziet toch wel wat daar gebeurt!!!!’ Nou, ik zag weer eens niks en vertelde hem dat en vroeg of hij me kon uitleggen wat ik miste.
    Ja, als je dat niet ziet, ga ik het je ook niet uitleggen, was de voor mij verbijsterende en vernederende reaktie.

    Dit alles zat in mijn primaire reaktie: geen antwoord op mijn vragen, wel een vernietigend oordeel.
    Vandaar de neiging weer te reageren met, maar nu secundair, iets in de orde van arrogante autist, of zoiets, maar ik twijfel nog.
    Is het niet beter je te vragen of je je kunt voorstellen dat ik mijn vragen serieus bedoel, en dat het kennelijk voor mij anders is dan voor jou.
    Mijn beleving van de wereld, bedoel ik dan natuurlijk.
    En de vraag om feedback is dan alleen zinvol in te vullen in de vorm van een gedetalleerde reaktie op mij, althans op wat ik schreef,
    in plaats van een met veel omhaal jezelf, Communicatio Precox Interruptus, met veel bombarie en omhaal van zelfrechtvaardigende woorden uit de omhelzing terug te trekken.
    Er rest mij, geheel vereenzaamd zijnde in deze, weinig anders meer dan terug te vallen op het eenzame doch edele handwerk.

    Het enige wat mij nog steunt in deze eenzame missie, althans vanuit de zogeheten brotherhood, zijn de vooralsnog laatste woorden van onze inmiddels Goaanse strandjutter Prem B.:
    On zaterdag 11-02-12 10:10, Prem B. wrote:
    > Hoi hans,
    > Je gaat door en dat vind ik konsekwent
    > Ik ben benieuwd naar het antwoord van james
    > Ik denk er soms over ook een uitgebreide mail aan hem te schrijven
    (Dit is een deelcitaat. Op zijn hele mail zal ik nog reageren, dan kunnen jullie ook gelijk zien of ik niet iets uit haar verband heb getrokken).

    Groet,

    hans
    EINDE CITAAT

    Ik heb nooit geweten dus wat Gopal toen meende te zien, of blufte te zien.

    Aho,
    hans

  • Loedia Wiersema
    Loedia Wiersema Dear Samira, I hear you.
    But I do not understand why you are stil part of this fb group called ‘friends of Isaac’
    It does not feel like you are a friend anymore.
    I am open if you want to ask critical questions but it does not feel like that to me.

 

14 antwoorden verbergen
  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken Dear Loedia, what is a friend for you? My system was longing for discussing this openly and up to now that didn’t happen…Thanks to Hans Pandora’s Box got opened and this is how life goes at the moment…
    You are free to unfriend me if that feels better for you.

 

  • Loedia Wiersema
    Loedia Wiersema Samira Hoelken Dear Samira Hoeken, for me IT is nog about unfriend you personaly.
    Just being surprised you are still in this group.
    Where do you want to discuss about?

  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken Dear Loedia yess, sometimes surprises are happening…

    Not coming to the meetings anymore and not seeing Isaac as my teacher anymore doesn’t mean that I close all the doors behind me or that I’m not interested anymore in what is going on in the Sangha …
    I didn’t speak or replay in public for the last two years but it seems that this process was not finished for me up till now and this is an important crucial part of bringing it to an end…

  • Loedia Wiersema

    Loedia Wiersema Samira Hoelken why are you still intersested in the sangha, and in the same time you do not accept Isaac. To me this feels very strange.

    In your reaction I feel much pain and anger.
    TO me IT is not clear what you want right now.
    Just telling us? Other options to see or deal with the situation or your feelings.

    Right now IT looks Just like dropping your opinion. Als to Isaac. And that is not so interesting to me.

    When you really want to share and Explorer, maybe you can make a post of your one intead of being part of this one from Hans

  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken Loedia, this Sangha felt like home for me for nearly twenty years… maybe you understand that there might be a process with leaving the field and may be not…

    I don’t have to explain it to you and actually I don’t want to explain it to you … you don’t need to understand why I do what I do!

    It’s not that I don’t accept or value Isaac… I don’t accept his behaviour on women and his denial of it! Not his being but his acting i don’t like!
    Wishing you well Loedia

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Loedia Wiersema, about being a friend or not this. One friend who read my whole story, one of the happy few, thanked me specifically for the link to what Comey has to say. I give it to you with the paragraph in which the link appears. It is related to the inner circle phenomenon, a sangha who attacks people who just speak their truth, as happened to Chiv, which specifically alerted me and made me start writing my open letter. QUOTE “Sanghas” that defend their leader for behaviour that outsiders see for what it is, are slowly slowly created. (Consciously or unconsciously).
    I recently saw a very clear description of how Trump’s “sangha” is molded to the docile herd that it is, as observed and described by James Comey in this 2’40 video.
    Comey: Trump eats your soul in small bites
    https://edition.cnn.com/…/comey-trump-soul-lies-town… ENF OF QUOTE
  • James Comey: President Trump eats your soul in small bites - CNN Video
    CNN.COM
    James Comey: President Trump eats your soul in small bites -…

    James Comey: President Trump eats your soul in small bites – CNN Video

  • Marco Meiring

    Marco Meiring Samira, when one doesn’t like the behaviour of someone else, what is it telling about who?

    What Isaac did and does is your perception seen throug your eyes, so you can’t know what happened.
    The only thing you know for sure is that what got triggered in your system by that situation what you saw with your eyes, by what you call: ” I don’t accept his behaviour on women and his denial of it!”

    I wonder what’s going on Samira? Where do you walk around with which you project on Isaac and blame him while it’s fully alive in you(r system)?
    I’m happy this happens, because there’s a lot going on in the field (although it rippled for years already,) which in my view is hidden so deep that it really took some effort to show up.
    So you’re welcome to share/explore your side of the story, and I speak for a few I guess when I ask you not to blame the trigger please.

  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring And for you the same Hans, for me it’s not about defending Isaac or what happened, but what it triggerd in you.
    So please save the spinning and get to the point, what is bothering YOU?
  • Loedia Wiersema

    Loedia Wiersema Samira Hoelken , thx for sharing a little bit of what is going on in you. I really understand that that you need time after nearly 20 years.

    To me it was a invitation to share deeper and connect. A hand reaching out……

    But off course you are free to not answer.

    Wishing you well too

  • Samira Hoelken
    Samira Hoelken Marco and Loedia, i shared what i needed to share several times in my last Retreat, in the Muiderchurch, here… every bit of it got rejected, twisted around, attacked… i don’t wanna go over it again…
    Isaac had sex with students and made inappropriate offers (to friends of mine and others), in a field like this where people come for support and healing something like this is forbidden by law. There are cases when gurus were sentenced by court.
    And of course they all never admitted it, they all tried to talk themselves out of it like Isaac ist doing it by pretending not to be a teacher….
    And the phenomenon that the sangha and group tries to protect the teacher is a common and logical thing.
    I really like the video Hans posted from James Comey.
    And now for me it’s time to close that chapter of my life.
    I said what I had to say, nothing to add.
    I wish you all well.
    Lots of love to you.

  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring For what I read is that you still have a problem and are not heard over and over and got rejected.
    Then my invitation remains to share your feelings instead of coming up with a story of the past.
    This is like they do in the US, walking into a classroom, shoot around to kill and than run away.
    Is this an appropiate way to express your frustrations?
    Even when he admits, does that silence the lambs?
  • Samira Hoelken

    Samira Hoelken I’m sorry Marco, are you really comparing me with a gun Shooter in America?

    I already shared my feelings but here is a summory for you: anger, sadness, helplessness, dissappointment … does that help ?

    Silence the lambs is an interesting expression and that is exactly what happens in a case like this.
    The leader does something completely inappropriate and the lambs are quiet… And if some lambs recognize their true nature as a lion and speak up they get attacked, ridiculed, excluded or even compared with a gunman in America!!

    If you watch a crime, sth. that is forbidden by law, do you go to the police and share your feelings or do you report the facts?

    Sorry Marco nothing to add to our conversation!

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten Marco Meiring Just give it up to get from me what you specifically expect. I have several times answered you with the intention to fullfill your wish. But you seem to expect something that will not come. Because all I wrote is about what was triggered in me and what is/was going on in me. Shalom.
  • Marco Meiring
    Marco Meiring Samira, somehow your summary of your feelings gives me a strange feeling that you don’t take your own feelings serious.
    But I’m familiar with those feelings so I’ll be careful about it because I know how much hurt is in them.
    I can only find a few lines lines which refer to that, most of your words are used for blame and fingerpointing.
    When I read you it’s for me as if you don’t take responsibility for your feelings and want to force that you’re right instead of creating a conversation where you can share and will be heard,
    In this way your lambs will never be silent.
    This is not about facts, this is about you.
    I wish you well.
  • Hans van der Gugten
    Schrijf een antwoord…
  • Elsa Subhi Luhn
    Elsa Subhi Luhn My love to all of you … all of us. What painful reading. So many words, when really a deep pain is wanting to be felt, inside, met, deeply in that place where we all are the same, in pain, in love, in longing, in broiling in all of this, in the slow resolving that happens when we meet it deeply, in silence, in more love … in all of it. Much love to all of us <3 <3 <3
  • Marionetta Wallmer
    Marionetta Wallmer May peace and love deepen in all beings involved and may all bondings of pain, longing and dissapoinment to be healed step by step.
  • Pujarin Silvia Merkle-schmidt
    Pujarin Silvia Merkle-schmidt this kind of shit storm makes me sick. I just want to say I feel immense gratitude and love for Isaac – like thousand others too. Could someone please just stop this here.
  • Karin Johanna
    Karin Johanna Remain quiet.
    Discover the harmony in your own being.
    Embrace it.
    If you can do this, you will gain everything,
    and the world will become healthy again.
    —Lao Tsu

 

  • Hans van der Gugten
    Hans van der Gugten The full verse: “Why scurry about looking for the truth?
    It vibrates in every thing and every not-thing, right off the tip of your nose.
    Can you be still and see it in the mountain?
    the pine tree?
    yourself?
    Don’t imagine that you’ll discover it by accumulating more knowledge.
    Knowledge creates doubt,
    and doubt makes you ravenous for more knowledge.
    You can’t get full eating this way.
    The wise person dines on something more subtle:
    He eats the understanding that the named was born from the unnamed, that all being flows from non- being, that the describable world emanates from an indescribable source.
    He finds this subtle truth inside his own self,
    and becomes completely content.
    So who can be still and watch the chess game of the world?
    The foolish are always making impulsive moves, but the wise know that victory and defeat are decided by something more subtle.
    They see that something perfect exists before any move is made.
    This subtle perfection deteriorates when artificial actions are taken,
    so be content not to disturb the peace.
    Remain quiet.
    Discover the harmony in your own being. Embrace it.
    If you can do this, you will gain everything, and the world will become healthy again.
    If you can’t, you will be lost in the shadows forever.” (https://www.cheraglibrary.org/taoist/taohua.html)

 

 

  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro In your own experience, when there is activation, is there always an availability to have the hand held? Sometimes from the perspective of the activation it just projects until it stops. In one way we are dealing with this, how to hold Trumps hand? Or like in the Bhagawa Gita, is there a time to have to fight? Love always <3

 

  • Barbara Joseph
    Barbara Joseph Lumari McGuinness i inderstand thre were facts and “healthy” reactions…..
    Now what…
    Is threre anyone traumatised? Venwoude has offered help to women that claimed to be traumatised long ago by a teacher that had great charisma….
    thy appologised for that occurance.
    There was a certain timeframe that made it just possible..
    so good to be in the open and heal ..
  • Isaac Shapiro
    Isaac Shapiro What facts? Would love to hear and also who is traumatised. As far as I know this is all about an idea.

 

THIS IS IT.

Isaac started to write longer under my Addendum, alas, nothing back upped.

This is it for now.

hans

Print Friendly, PDF & Email
This entry was posted in my blog. Bookmark the permalink.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Are you a robot ? * Time limit is exhausted. Please reload CAPTCHA.