We are the champions, we are the champions, we are the champions, of the world,or: Meji and Ramji 2.

After the entry ‘Diederik bedankt’ there was still so much to figure out that it made me stay away from James Swarts’ satsang in order to investigate my own old stuff that was stirred. Few days ago I wrote Ramji a open letter that i will publish here, followed by his answer. In the coconuts entry before this one I announced that Eric the German was willing to read this texts and he did, this morning over a coffee in Tiruvannamalai in The gold Cup, a coffeeshop that has a sign that reads ‘Coffee only’, a place where the middle class business people (yes, woman too) were having there relatively expensive morning coffee for Rs 10. His opinion was clear. While reading he said ‘you’re asking for the man’s permission’ and after reading both texts: your letter is a tutti frutti, his answer has a line in it and comes from a higher level.
The result of our discussion was that we both went to the morning satsang of Ramji.
Eric the German left before the break and I left in the break. So far, so good.
Consept open letter/blog entry about my time with myself in Tiru, including lectures on the Bhagavad Gita by James Swartz and the inner search that came along with that.
(Because of the fast received answer I leave the consept as it is, no more changes).

Tiru, Januari 26, 2012.
Ramji,You say that as a advaita vedanta teacher you are a friend, not a guru.
As a friend I feel obliged to write you this.
About myself I have observed that the heart functions thru the mind.
That explains the amount of details.
Now I have seen this route, while typing this, I suddenly am aware that i can also speak directly from the heart:
Dear James, attending your satsangs is extremely painful for me, even after having traced and processed what
your way of critiszing other teachers/teachings triggered in me.
My heart sees a heart in you, covered with a layer of indifference, that you rationalize away with great creativity.
For now I just type what i have written before in Rani’s Garden this afternoon.
(For practical reasons only, like wanting to have dinner within one and a half hours so).
I learned from you last year that ignorance is a essential part of consciousnes.
This discovery crumbled a whole bunch of misunderstandings in this bodymind system and this is still going on.
And I am totally gratefull  for that this has happened.
It also shed light on my family story that we spoke about last year.
And now this:
I am so much offended by the way you are nagging other teachers and teachings.
(Mind you, not by the critisizing itself, but by the way it is done).
The emotional reaction was so much ‘out of proportion’, that it was clear that inner research was necessary.
I started, following my nature, talking a lot about what happened to me by and while being in your satsang/lectures/presence.
So, I have heard a lot of the rationalisations that other people use to bridge the gap between what you are teaching and the way
you speak about other teachers/teachings.
Sometimes you give some content to your criticizing, but more and more it has on me the impact of a very mean stand up comedian.
Quite soon, thanks to a persistent questioning done by another guy from Amsterdam, I found the first layers of underlying old triggers.
Already three weeks ago I wrote this on myblog: https://www.hansvandergugten.nl/?p=896
After that the thingy quieted down.
But there was more.
I decided (it decided) to not attend your meetings for as long as this was not fully cleared up in me.
I kept meeting some of your regulars, all strugling in their own personal ways with the same, so I stayed informed about your most
recent ‘outbursts’ (Osho was an idiot, was amongst them) and had again many conversations with them.
(Sometimes it was heavy stuff, even to the point that one of them walked away from the table).
And also with several people that had visited you once and never again.
(Really, James, you seem to have no idea about the amount of people that are chased away, just by the way you think that this
ultimate teaching needs to be defended against the stupid ‘neo’s’ for instance).
Yesterday morning I felt fit to attend your satsang /lecture again.
I was so ready that when I imagined you going after the neo’s again, I could see/hear myself acting like a member of Britsh Parliament:
Hear, hear, yeah, yeah, the neo’s are the worst. Accompanied by a habitual smile that shows some habitual compassion with the last speaker.
Instead of neo bashing you labelled Aurobindo as having been mentally disabled, having fallen in love with his thinking and going for the fame.
(And again, you might be right, it is the way it is done that hurts like hell).
I raised my finger three times to ask a question. (I deliberately did not put extra energy in it, just made sure that you saw it).
You had been making fools out of those stupid people who claim to know who they are, but keep having preferences.
Which leads to manipulating which always bounces back on you, or words simular to this.
My question was: Ramji, some weeks ago you said that you manipulate the gunas in order to lead a satvic life.
Why the need and why does it not bounce back on you?
It was reported to me that about a week ago two guys from Amsterdam (What a city!!) spoke to you after a morning satsang,
giving you feedback about how they experience the neo bashing.
In the Q&A that afternoon you spoke about 2 people having complained about that morning and 5 (!) people having spoken to you
expressing their gratitude about the same  guru bashing. You expressed that you did not want more complaining.
One of the guys told me that in the morning your answer was satisfying for him, but that the way you described your meeting in the
afternoon sounded to him as a distorted version of what had happened.
Well, I can go on for hours and in details.
It comes down to this:
Yesterday morning I could feel  as a undertone during your whole lecture a touch of  arrogance:
This teaching is the best, we have the best and the systematich approach, our tradition has the one and only complete teaching, and and and.
It hurts the heart, extra because of the spoken knowledge.
I decided to not come anymore.
As I spoke to someone: the body does not want to be around anymore, even when the mind is enjoying this great intellectually satisfying Rishi Stuff.
There is much more.
For this to write down according to my own quality standards will take much more time than I have available right now.
I give you some email quotes from the past weeks, the ones that are in English:
(Not found, computer to slow).
I am fully willing to speak with you about this in person. And I want this in time on my weblog. Exchanges of this kind deserve to be public, afaic.
You also create some fancy believes in the people that struggle to stay around.
they quote you all the time:
“But only here you get a complete teaching, one with a systematic approach”.
One guy, when I tried to give him an example of a famous one time/one sentence enlightenment experience
(The Ramana Papaji one), interupted me with a big but:”But Ramana was not a real teacher, he was not a real
advaita vedanta teacher with a systematic approach.
Here I gave up.
I spoke a lot about you, giving a lot of oneliners, verbalizing what goes on in me about you.
One of them is this: If he would/could give up this stupid and unnecessary defence of a giant teaching,
he would by now have an audience like Krishnamurti had, instead of a few dozen listeners in a mental split.
And here is the point, where I have to remember that you say that personal karma is keyword protected
and that we cannot solve other peoples’ karmas. You are right of course.
I have strugled strongly with the question If it had to be me again who has to tell you.
(Please, not me again)
And yesterday morning you said (from my notes), that when someone says something that hurts you, tell them.
That is following dharma too.
Last year I learned clearly, that action is more valuable than inaction (The Arjuna dilemma).
And that as an actor you cannot claim authorship of the results.
So be it.
Tiru, Januari 26, 2012.

Hi Hans,
I am not surprised that you feel this way.  It is fine with me.  It is good that the neo-bashing chases people away.  If people are so sensitive to this kind of criticsm that they throw the baby our with the bath, they are not qualified for Vedanta.  There are eighty people who have the discrimination to take it as it is intended and who are enjoying the talks very much so whose opinion am I supposed to take, not that I care what anyone thinks, including the people who think I am wonderful.  I am a public figure and I expect occasional criticism…and it is occasional.  Isn’t this letter the same kind of complaining that you accuse me of?  It is the first email I have recaived on the topic.  If you read my website, the satsang section, you will see hundreds of emails praising the teaching and the way I teach. If you were fair minded and you added up the all the non-neo bashing talk and compared it to the neo-bashing talk, the neo-bashing talk would not constitute more than three percent of the total talk. In life you are going to find that there are many things that are not to your liking.  I think it would be fair to say that you have a lot of anger in you owing to your family situation, which has not been properly processed, and that it is convenient to project it on me. When you are done with me, you will find other people and things to project your anger on. You have been doing this for a long time and you will probably continue to do it. Maybe you were the victim of some kind of injustice in the past but making an identity of it cannot be very pleasant.  The world is not responsible for your anger.  Even if it was, it is up to you to purify it.  When you project it on someone or something, you just keep it alive.  If I had ever criticized you, then I would take this letter seriously, but I have only showed you complete respect. If you love the Neo’s so much, if they have helped you so much, why come to my talks?   And furthermore, if you were fair-minded, you would have to take into account the opinions of the many people who agree with my criticism.  In fact, I am going to give two talks exposing enlightenment myths in Holland at the request of the organizer.
In any case, I wish you the very best, Hans.



Ramji and Meji 1
Ramji and Meji 2
Ramji and Meji 3
Ramji and Meji 4
Ramji and Meji 5
Ramji and Meji 6
Ramji and Meji 7
Ramji and Meji 8
Ramji and Meji 9
Ramji and Meji 10
Ramji and Meji 11


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One Response to We are the champions, we are the champions, we are the champions, of the world,or: Meji and Ramji 2.

  1. barbara joseph says:

    dear Ram
    if you happen to read this message I would love to let you know that I have known H. for over 30 years.. if anyone has worked uot his childhood issues it must be him, and he himself did not throw away the cild with the bathwater, because exactly this child has the gift to detact lies..lies told by the so called grown up people..
    You say it doesn’t toutch you, that could be the problem..
    vulneralability is one wing of the bird, isn’t it?
    the 3% that is chased away might the tip of an iceberg
    the rest might be overlooking that “small” issue.. denying the little voice inside where it “naggs” because “the teachings” are more important.
    It needs one brave guy to express his truth .
    It must be all an issue of mentality.
    I met you in Tiru several years ago..
    Through your eyes probably a “lost case”
    greetings B.

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